tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post7024478211695647600..comments2024-02-27T11:15:46.473-06:00Comments on Quidnon: Cockpit design: a picture plus a few thousand wordsDmitry Orlovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-75949796155759425612016-01-02T17:46:06.561-06:002016-01-02T17:46:06.561-06:00Hi,
Have you seen the rope hinges at http://www.yr...Hi,<br />Have you seen the rope hinges at http://www.yrvind.com/present_project/<br /><br />skvammehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12635948580273279412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-74202682217616015832015-12-28T22:01:11.686-06:002015-12-28T22:01:11.686-06:00My apologies. Got a little carried away. Some of w...My apologies. Got a little carried away. Some of what I was doing was just thinking out loud. I've always been enamored with the idea of a cement boat because of it's durability. As you said all that that tying of the wire up and making sure the cement is done in one big pass is the stopper. If someone could make a cement like MgO which sticks to cardboard, was easy to work with, decent cost and most of all consistent it would be the thing to have. Alas...<br /><br />Yes I totally missed the tensioned spring ideas purpose. It's a very good idea you have there.<br /><br />QUIDNON looks excellent. I sure it will be fabulous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-79131928870753965782015-12-27T08:34:07.081-06:002015-12-27T08:34:07.081-06:00Hi Sam,
Thanks for your thoughts, but I think you...Hi Sam,<br /><br />Thanks for your thoughts, but I think you are mostly thinking about some other design, not QUIDNON, which is fiberglass over plywood. Concrete has been discussed and abandoned.<br /><br />One comment: the tensioned spring in the rudder linkage is to avoid damage in case the rudder strikes GROUND, not water. If the spring can be flexed by waves, it isn't tensioned right.Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-37116325473539273482015-12-26T22:33:18.814-06:002015-12-26T22:33:18.814-06:00I looked around a little and found these guys, who...I looked around a little and found these guys, who I have no financial interest in, and wow they have bladders covered.<br /><br />http://atlinc.com/pillow.html<br /><br />I also noticed they have fuel bladders. Hmm...you could also build boxes and place the fuel bladder in and cover with sea water. As the fuel declines pump in sea water over the bladder in the box. The great advantage in the sea water bladder idea is you're carrying maximum fuel, water, etc. when you start and never just losing space to ballast that serves no purpose. Sea water could be pumped from front to back to trim like an airplane pumps fuel from wing to wing. <br /> The lifetime of the bladders should be great. Think of inner tubes in tractor tires. They last a long time with great stress on them. Since they're in boxes they'll be easy to drain and remove if needed. You would need to strap them down and maybe have a liner so they wouldn't rub on the box.<br />Fluids also make a far better heat storage mass than any rock or concrete. Water is the best heat storage material there is.<br /><br />Something interesting. There's guy named Michael Bradley who built floating pontoon boats in the third world for fishermen. He simulated the balsa logs they used to use with foam. He had a great idea. He used a windmill to turn a prop. That way no matter which way you went as long as their was wind it was efficient to travel. <br /><br />http://www.michaelbradley.info/lowtech/windmotor.html<br /><br />http://www.michaelbradley.info/articles/windmills1.html<br /><br />This always interested me. Since the windmill is self starting and sort of furls itself with higher winds. A gear off of the bottom, or rope or belt drive, could also drive an alternator charging the batteries. Since it self furls itself you could have very large wind sails for low force winds which would also work for large winds. In a storm you could head which ever way was safest instead of which way the sails turned you. If you fed power to the propeller you could maneuver the boat in the storm. Changing the whindmills opening could regulate power to the propeller. If you made the windmills sails rectangular then if all else fails you could turn the sail into a somewhat inefficient Chinese junk sail and carry on. <br /><br />Micheal Bradly has a good page on speculative curragh ideas which is right up your ally. It's called,<br /> "Hot Air and Ancient Wonders: Technology for dummies, or building massive monuments and surviving the coming social Deluge"<br /><br />http://www.michaelbradley.info/books/hotair/hotair1.html<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-61118292682306211742015-12-26T21:07:59.659-06:002015-12-26T21:07:59.659-06:00I have an idea about the ballast also. Some of you...I have an idea about the ballast also. Some of your ballast is water ballast and some you say you're going to use concrete. The concrete is just pure weight and adds no purpose. It also can't be dumped if you're marooned on a sand bar, rock or whatever. Why not use ALL water ballast? Yet make the water useful. A tool. All the water ballast would be in a box. Inside the box would be a rubber or butyl FRESHWATER bladder that almost filled the box. As you use the fresh water you could pump sea water into the box surrounding the freshwater bladder. Hence the amount of ballast never changes. You could start out with a huge reserve of freshwater compared to a normal boat while never compromising the boats ballast which would stay the same weight all the time. If you get somewhere where the boat needs to be removed from the water and freshwater is available you could dump all the freshwater and seawater ballast making the boat super light, in comparison to a huge concrete rock that you can't remove. If you get stuck on some rock or bar you could dump seawater ballast to get unstuck. Would be a good trick for beaching. Fill the seawater ballast as full as possible and run up on the beach. When you want to leave pump it out at high tide and float off. You could always fill it up after you're at sea.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-9412282445123294462015-12-26T08:57:24.365-06:002015-12-26T08:57:24.365-06:00You would then need to add the rope or wire post-s...You would then need to add the rope or wire post-stress cables. To do so you use rope wrapped in cardboard or paper. Why the cardboard or paper? The rope will need to slide in the concrete channels to be tensioned. The cardboard would keep cement out of the rope or cable grooves that are in the rope. These are laid in the assembled cement shell in the same pattern as a fishing net and (most importantly) exiting the hull. Any breaks in the rope must be out of the hull on the top deck for easy inspection.<br /><br />Now you may say this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Boats held together by rope but that's the way the ancient Greeks and the Egyptians held together their boats and with the modern ropes we have it could be very strong. Here's a video showing exactly how they sew boats together.<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtpZPvpRMr4<br /><br />The strength could be very large using modern materials but basically I would rather use normal stuff like nylon rope. Here's a page of the tensile strength of various materials.<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_tensile_strength#Typical_tensile_strengths<br /><br />The Ultimate tensile strength(MPa)of wood is only 40 MPa. Nylon fiber, drawn is 900 MPa. If you really wanted to get the super stuff Kevlar is 3757 MPa. After you lay in the rope tensioners you spray over them with cement from a cheap cement sprayer. Ribs and flooring could also be sand cast and all tied together with cement then sprayed. After it dries pull the ropes tight and tension the whole shell together. Notice I said to make loops outside of the hull. Each loop could be tightened with a chisel or lever put under the rope then pulled up to tighten the rope. The rope then bound in with a wedge just as shown in the video I linked. Also having the rope showing you could tension the ropes further with wedges if the rope or cable stretches. <br /><br />With the panels sand cast you could even make the panels honeycombed. It's unbelievable how strong honeycomb structures are. Ever seen honeycomb cardboard. You can stand on pieces made of the same thickness as a normal cardboard box. <br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeycomb_structure<br /><br />I picked up a F-16 horizontal stabilizer one time. A guy asked me to help him pick it up. I bent my knees and picked it up expecting it to have some weight as it was fairly large. It weighed nothing. I was astounded how little it weighed. It made of honeycomb with thin skins.<br /><br />Once again my apology's for posting about cement when your using wood but I looked at some of your wood cost and had to at least discuss the idea that there might be another way.<br /><br />I do think the rope controlled tiller would work well though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-32002953644626044272015-12-26T08:51:16.122-06:002015-12-26T08:51:16.122-06:00My apologies again. I didn't see this site unt...My apologies again. I didn't see this site until the other day. I'm now commenting on the tiller post. Your tiller spring idea is excellent. I really like it. The idea is I assume to not have the tiller forcefully whack you if a wave hits the rudder. Another way to do this is to operate the tiller with a rope. A rope would be tied around the tiller where you hold onto it. Route the rope in a circular circuit through the cockpit with bearings or rollers. It could even make a circuit into the cabin, the front of the boat, or where ever you wanted to control the boat from. As the rollers would have little friction pulling the rope one direction would turn the rudder one way and pulling the opposite the other way. As you can readily let go of the rope if the rudder is hit it wouldn't damage anything. This also gives you infinite placement of control of the boat as the rope can be routed wherever you can fit bearings. If you wanted to vary the ratio of rope pull to tiller movement you could get rid of the tiller lever arm all together and make a Chinese windlass. On this page look at the first drawing of Differential windlass.<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windlass<br /><br />See the ropes labeled S and S'? Those would be the ropes routed through the cabin or where ever. As you see there's a pulley or sheave labeled R. As you can imagine you could have any number of these pulleys routed all over with the rope making a control circuit to the rudder where ever the rope went. The ratio of rope pull to rudder movement could be whatever you wish. Just like a wheel but cheap and routable.<br /><br />Now I know you've centered on wood for the boat shell but I've been thinking about concrete. I love the idea of all concrete (actually cement) because it's so cheap that anyone around the world could do it. Yes I know I'm babbling. The key is to pre-stress the concrete. I got to thinking about wires first but then started thinking about rope. Rope can be made out of grass if necessary. Now in the modern countries we would use something better but just for fun I'm thinking about what people could do in a developing country with next to no money.<br /><br />Here's a guy that knows damn near everything there is to know about molding cement and ferrocement. Look at this page and you'll see he does beautiful work sand casting cement. (he also has a lot of other good pages)He says that when he sand cast it makes the cement stronger as the water runs out in the sand compacting the cement unlike forms which hold it in.<br /><br />http://harmoniouspalette.com/SandCastStone.html<br /><br />As you can see on the page fairly complicated curved structures can be made easily with this method. My thinking is you make sand molds in sections. The middle of the boat would just be repeating sections. The bow and stern would have to be done as one offs. A thin shell would be made. All the shells would be stood up and connected. cont.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-58328170995647098462015-12-22T02:42:04.669-06:002015-12-22T02:42:04.669-06:00This is a really interesting project. I wanted to ...This is a really interesting project. I wanted to comment about the concrete bottom but on that post comments are not allowed. Excuse me for commenting on it here.<br /><br />There's a way to post stress concrete to make it super strong. They use it for concrete slabs in the building trade. It dramatically lowers the amount of concrete needed and also lowers the amount of re-bar needed. Here's a link to a page. Also search google for concrete stress cable and Post-Tensioning Concrete. The first search term will give you pictures of what the cable looks like.<br /><br />http://www.concretenetwork.com/post-tension/basics.html<br /><br />The way it works is a steel cable is coated in plastic and laid into the concrete when poured. After it dries the cable is pulled tight. The plastic is like a bushings or conduit way that the steel cable slides in. It stresses the concrete throughout the structure.You can buy the cables or it would be easy to make them yourself out of steel cable covered with liquid rubber or plastic.<br /><br /> Why am I saying this. You might could make the whole thing out of concrete. Top too. Search for "Fabric formwork". Look at this link.<br /><br />http://www.fabricforming.org/images/papers/Veenendaal,%20D.%20History%20and%20overview%20of%20fabric%20formwork.pdf<br /><br />Another<br /><br />http://www.atkinsglobal.com/~/media/Files/A/Atkins-Global/Attachments/sectors/buildings/library-docs/technical-papers/Concrete%20structures%20using%20fabric%20formwork.pdf<br /><br />If you search for "fabric formwork" you get some excellent pictures of amazing stuff. Another method of fabric formwork is to drape cloth and spray it with plaster. This link shows the hanging fabric panels. The panels can be used as sprayed or even better used as molds or concrete forms.<br /><br />http://www.fabwiki.fabric-formedconcrete.com/doku.php?id=fabwiki:research:research_efforts<br /><br />Makes you think doesn't it. You could form the whole hull from hanging fabric and spray with plaster or concrete. This would form a mold in small sections. The sections are then wired, bolted, roped or whatever together. Stress cables are added and then the whole mold is poured with concrete in one big pour. Advantages are the molds are light weight and can be formed by natural draping of the fabric. Concrete with some plastic or metal reinforcement is super tough and long lasting.Post stressed takes away the worry of tension as most stresses on the hull are tension anyways the added cables would make the concrete strong. Hulling by hitting something would be very unlikely as the concrete is strong and it could be very thick as it's needed for ballast anyways. Another idea is to make the concrete even thicker and use light weight concrete. Usually added perlite, vermiculite or foam. Millions of pounds of this stuff are poured every year. A lot of it is used for insulation on top of malls and other buildings. With a super thick concrete hull made of lightweight insulation you wouldn't need any insulation it would be built in. Repairs are as simple as spatualing on a little cement. A few metal inserts could be added before the pour and be cemented in place. If you used lightweight concrete I bet it wouldn't sink. Couldn't sink. That to me is one of the most important things. I can't believe that anyone builds boats that if they fill with water sink but some do. I think it's stupid. The first rule of making boats is that it should just not ever sink. And finally it would just be dirt cheap. You could even make all the interior out of cement and pour the whole thing in one big pour. After pouring and drying you coat the concrete surface inside and out with a good epoxy paint and you have a trouble free surface for a long, long time.<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-61644714594263189862015-10-22T14:06:58.057-06:002015-10-22T14:06:58.057-06:00Just arrived here from the interview with Herr Kie...Just arrived here from the interview with Herr Kieser [giggle]<br />Course for sometime now I've understood that should matters get out-of-hand here in Manhattan, in the range of X-class solar flares aka transformer shut-down at Indian Point Nuclear facility, or flooding during my 110th birthday. The only way out is going to be sailing. Community Sailing club here I come. Thanks Dimitry.<br />also found this on the bloggersphere: The Peoples Cruiser<br />http://volkscruiser.blogspot.com/2014/01/is-this-year-of-trilo.htmlAndy Salciushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17987036897899347231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-19238005843961547452015-10-18T14:22:38.547-06:002015-10-18T14:22:38.547-06:00The engine is positioned so that it doesn't pr...The engine is positioned so that it doesn't protrude beyond the lowest part of the bottom or the rudders with the blades retracted. But it's not a bad idea to spring-load the engine track at the bottom, so that there is an additional line to horse it all the way down that's easy to uncleat, causing the engine to come up. You are right that in shallow water the boards should be partway down, so that there is some warning before running aground.Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-26669367673620004992015-10-18T00:06:38.661-06:002015-10-18T00:06:38.661-06:00Your outboard will be very exposed when working in...Your outboard will be very exposed when working in shallow water and will risk ripping the leg off when it strikes bottom with the momentum of a fairly heavy vessel, as you say the design allows no kick up. The greatest risk will be when you are running with fair current in muddy water. I suggest you make a habit in such circumstances of running with the boards well below the outboard as an 'early warning' and be ready to immediately kill and haul the OB. You might also consider having a pair of big sweeps, or if you're alone, a sculling oar, to manage the boat going downstream. You can also use the looms of oars (never the blades of course) to pole on the bottom or bear off a bank.Rob Rhodeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01491897632393182567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-1344092088693196472015-10-16T11:18:54.421-06:002015-10-16T11:18:54.421-06:00From Dave Zeiger via email:
Cockpit looks great. ...From Dave Zeiger via email:<br /><br />Cockpit looks great. One option, given the parallel, longitudinal lines is sliding structures. A thwart, for example, or a frame for a fabric Bimini (accordianed out between the forward dodger and sliding frame). <br /><br />On our boats, we've extended the cockpit aft to the rudder post. In light weather, we sit aft, with low tiller leverage. As things pick up, we slide the thwart forward for improved leverage. Meanwhile, between it and the fixed, aft seat, it makes a great ripping notch or support for projects. Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-32757393880788121642015-10-16T07:17:56.927-06:002015-10-16T07:17:56.927-06:00I haven't reintegrated the bimini yet, but pla...I haven't reintegrated the bimini yet, but plan to. I think that there is easily room for 400-600W of solar.<br /><br />The lazarettes will have limbers that will drain into the cockpit well.<br /><br />Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-4100830787158407872015-10-15T22:42:39.854-06:002015-10-15T22:42:39.854-06:00I'm onto 5 months of cockpit time in our (whee...I'm onto 5 months of cockpit time in our (wheel steered) sailboat, and so I can say with some authority that your design looks very good! I do have a few questions:<br /><br />1. Your early design included a big roof for shade and lots of PV. Do you plan to use a bimini too?<br /><br />2. Will there be any PV, or will most/all power come from wind turbines? <br /><br />3. If water gets into the backrest lockers, is there a provision for them to drain? Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13978293677123309037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-90978391028984829122015-10-13T09:18:12.122-06:002015-10-13T09:18:12.122-06:00Proper KISS engineering. The only worthwhile impro...Proper KISS engineering. The only worthwhile improvement is simplification.<br />inohurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04399733097954816285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-47689964128074081992015-10-13T06:54:07.093-06:002015-10-13T06:54:07.093-06:00The engine will not turn at all, for a few differe...The engine will not turn at all, for a few different reasons. It doesn't work like you'd expect; in fact, it doesn't work at all. The engine well is too narrow. Pretty much any outboard in the 25-50hp range will work, with a lower-pitch prop. They all exhaust through the prop when in gear.Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-63826745017559177392015-10-12T23:30:15.058-06:002015-10-12T23:30:15.058-06:00I just read, courtesy of the Friends Of The Librar...I just read, courtesy of the Friends Of The Library 50c paperback policy, Herman melevilles s first book, Redburn, His First Journey. It's an excellent book! But I pith those who read it and don't know what a spanker boom is, or what the scuppers might be.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13916394695449933164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-12312495305467695052015-10-12T21:47:46.225-06:002015-10-12T21:47:46.225-06:00What about engine steering?
With it mounted that w...What about engine steering?<br />With it mounted that way it would help in some situations such as docking into the wind to be able to push sideways with the engine at 90 degrees or more. At more than 90 shifting forward/reverse may not be needed. No need to stress the bow line or need a spring line just to power the stern into the dock.<br />If the engine is tiller steered does it disengage when raised?<br />Which engine? I thought most current outboard engines exhaust through the prop hub. Or is that only the bigger ones?inohurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04399733097954816285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-79842147819621227262015-10-12T13:13:21.920-06:002015-10-12T13:13:21.920-06:00The fresh air will come in through the engine hatc...The fresh air will come in through the engine hatch, which has slots in it. When the engine is in idle, the exhaust comes out of a pipe above the water. I intend to connect an exhaust hose to this pipe and pipe it overboard. When the engine is in gear, the exhaust is injected into the water alongside the prop. Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-41775215526625360592015-10-12T11:49:16.948-06:002015-10-12T11:49:16.948-06:00Have you calculated the fresh air and exhaust requ...Have you calculated the fresh air and exhaust requirements for operating the engine in the well under all conditions?denmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08542755119741167512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-13753525845282058632015-10-11T21:16:10.182-06:002015-10-11T21:16:10.182-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09525967167827597152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-78713434917845731222015-10-11T18:15:08.432-06:002015-10-11T18:15:08.432-06:00Well I do intend to distribute PAPER study plans o...Well I do intend to distribute PAPER study plans once the design is finished. Luddites, rejoice!Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-41617967942502687302015-10-11T17:11:52.794-06:002015-10-11T17:11:52.794-06:00Color me impressed!
It's been all I can do to...Color me impressed!<br /><br />It's been all I can do to do finally come up with a good folding table drawing board design, simple as shit and folding is important because I, and most Americans, live in cramped spaces these days. You can't buy my design in stores though, which is weird, its so obvious.<br /><br />BTW as a side note, I love in the heart if the so called silicon valley, and the digital divide is growing fast. I have a shitty tablet for my work, which pays what I made just out of high school. A windows 3.11 machine from 20 years ago would run circles around it. My actual word transmission rate as I peck this out is on a par with 5wpm Morse code. I expect my internet access to only get worse, as time goes on.<br /><br />So, give us a mailing address so we can send you random cash donations and subscribe to the Dmitry Orlov mimeographed newsletter! Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13916394695449933164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-75187108829136827862015-10-11T11:08:07.817-06:002015-10-11T11:08:07.817-06:00A square hulled boat and consideration for smaller...A square hulled boat and consideration for smaller people - my estimation of you just rose up a notch! Redreamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08945189047249283578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-1020204170803167052015-10-11T09:24:29.077-06:002015-10-11T09:24:29.077-06:00Well, Karl, that's easy to fix. There is a mil...Well, Karl, that's easy to fix. There is a million places to learn sailing, and the process is immensely enjoyable.<br /><br />Alan, the engine hoist is just a hoist, of the sort used to hoist outboard engines, with a 5-part purchase. The engine tilt wouldn't work the engine is in a well, and at the bottom there is only enough room to pass the cavitation plate.Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.com