tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post1890043488979342214..comments2024-02-27T11:15:46.473-06:00Comments on Quidnon: Frame Joinery ReduxDmitry Orlovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-40441371060198169322019-07-14T01:04:17.081-06:002019-07-14T01:04:17.081-06:00I'm late to this post, but I'm wondering i...I'm late to this post, but I'm wondering if eliminating the curvature of the hull wall will also allow the elimination of the need to build the entire hull upside down, then flipped by force. Maybe just the bottom section upside down, then flip?MoonShadowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07026735575577934205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-83832252321064535912019-05-13T07:09:46.339-06:002019-05-13T07:09:46.339-06:00Scarf joints result in scrap, and scrap is expensi...Scarf joints result in scrap, and scrap is expensive. A 10" angle cut will waste 2 feet of material. If for each 8-foot 4x4 2 feet are wasted, then that's 25% wasted as scrap and another 25%, plus another 2 feet of effective length reduction, blowing up the lumber bill 50%.Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-69131241259106179572019-03-06T20:28:39.220-06:002019-03-06T20:28:39.220-06:00I am so glad this project continues to move forwar...I am so glad this project continues to move forward, after one or more thoughtful time-outs, as which often happens with hard projects. Dmitry, applause! Y'all, commenters included, are above my pay grade, and super-helpful. I'm sensing a downhill slope to a boat in the water. That's what I'm waiting for!<br />IowanXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05275074272683837743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-28406182338125206682019-02-19T09:21:19.681-06:002019-02-19T09:21:19.681-06:00I agree with some of the other comments that a sca...I agree with some of the other comments that a scarf joint is best. When you are making a long straight or semi-straight length the goal is to have it all have about the same strength. What you have done with your proposal is take a long somewhat evenly flexible section and create an absolutely inflexible section aka a stress riser that will transfer the stress of the entire length to the ends of the fiberglass wrap and metal piece. One way around this is to graduate the termination of the glass wrap over a longer area. Or just do a 10” angle cut scarf joint, glue with a good resorcinol or my current favorite is a polyurethane moisture activated glue and screw. I assume you will have at least one side of this beam glued and screwed to ply so that is your bracket. If you really want more strength there make a nice ply piece 12 to 18" long with tapered ends and g&s it in place.<br /><br />I would not bother with metal brackets except maybe where you have a 90 degree.Jefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04054086221209209274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-18724932200427404622019-02-12T08:06:15.481-06:002019-02-12T08:06:15.481-06:00While I am neither a boat builder nor expect to ev...While I am neither a boat builder nor expect to every have a Quindon or similar boat, I find these continued discussions fascinating to try to follow. Someday I hope you can actually build this boat so we can see if your engineering design decisions actually work or not.Kevin Anderson K9IUAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10464375082598208201noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-76078087186317821282019-02-11T04:37:15.399-06:002019-02-11T04:37:15.399-06:00My experience with slag-blasting and epoxy-coating...My experience with slag-blasting and epoxy-coating vs. painting welded brackets is that epoxy doesn't really adhere. In the future I will slag-blast, then galvanize, then follow the standard procedure for painting galvanized steel. As far as bedding, a pad of 3M 5200 between the steel and the fiberglassed wood is probably the best strategy. Small pilot holes for the lag screws and a bit of 5200 on the screws would probably help too.Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-72336503128692228362019-02-10T12:54:35.793-06:002019-02-10T12:54:35.793-06:00I've looked at the alternatives of steam-bendi...I've looked at the alternatives of steam-bending bow timbers and slicing them up into slats that can be cold-molded to the right curve. All of these approaches involve more work and tooling, and a higher level of craftsmanship than a beachside/riverside builder can reasonably provide. The need for epoxy/fiberglass, metal fabrication, screws, etc., would remain the same regardless of whether straight or curved timbers are used in the bow.Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-65249170245309224032019-02-10T09:57:14.984-06:002019-02-10T09:57:14.984-06:00Apparently a bad idea to mate steel brackets to ba...Apparently a bad idea to mate steel brackets to bare wood without a lot of bedding (George Buehler book?). The fiberglass tape might solve that problem. And 3/4" ply gussets? Been there, done that and creates big voids perfect for spiders and trash. Re the brackets rusting out: evidence from a boatbuilder who took two steel frames (both freshly sandblasted) and coated one with epoxy and one with Tremclad brand paint. A year or so in the rain and the epoxy ones were rusting. The guy figured he could just use Tremclad paint without sandblasting. So much for epoxy coating steel.Robertohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18320063715736110902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-52375645289122313942019-02-10T04:49:54.145-06:002019-02-10T04:49:54.145-06:00The screws have to be either stainless or bronze. ...The screws have to be either stainless or bronze. The most effective material for the brackets is galvanized mild steel. Galvanized anchor chain and anchors last for decades immersed in salt water, and there have been no problems with stainless screws holding together fiberglass-over-plywood boats over a 40-year period. Titanium is not an option. The choice of materials is ultra-conservative and time-tested.Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-14033404409215210602019-02-10T04:46:13.776-06:002019-02-10T04:46:13.776-06:00There is a school in Grand Marais that teaches pra...There is a school in Grand Marais that teaches practically all the skills you'd need to build a Quidnon right there.Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-49986800070760061072019-02-09T20:05:59.834-06:002019-02-09T20:05:59.834-06:00Good trick to know for other boatbuilding projects...Good trick to know for other boatbuilding projects as well. Probably provides that extra level of confidence when the boat is hove to and taking some shots occasionally. But... still a place for all wood watercraft in beach microcruiser-campers and wood surfboards!! 8) Resolute men proudly sport a woodie.Robertohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18320063715736110902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-55183484536829289842019-02-09T17:12:34.584-06:002019-02-09T17:12:34.584-06:00I'm glad the steel brackets have been eliminat...I'm glad the steel brackets have been eliminated. This seems like a simple, strong, and reliable approach.Pantalones Frescoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10705935808241992572noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-85328603436154709542019-02-09T16:02:38.133-06:002019-02-09T16:02:38.133-06:00Im building a Dory for when I move up to Grand Mar...Im building a Dory for when I move up to Grand Marias on Lake Superior next Summer. <br />I hope to set it up for Line fish trolling for Lake Trout and Salmon. TY for your project updates. Maybe Ill try a Quidnon once I get settled in my new town. Winters are long there, the community has some top shelf carpentry talent. What could go wrong?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06449151339078489103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-67285059482944316512019-02-09T11:24:46.067-06:002019-02-09T11:24:46.067-06:00The following is a possible alternative for consid...The following is a possible alternative for consideration. It may offer additional simplicity, cost reduction, and lends itself to being conformed more easily with requirements for hull curvature. <br />Instead of creating a single butt-joint to mate each 100mm x 100mm timber, run each timber through a table saw to give 3 off 100mm x 30mm planks. The would allow each 100mm x 100mm (now 90mm) timber to be re-created as a 3-ply construction assembled so as to eliminate all contiguous butt joints. This would be achieved by offsetting all end-of-plank joints from one-another; with the intent of removing the need for butt-joint re-enforcement. If you were to lay up the planks, with the plank-ends offset at 1m intervals, and bonded them with water-proof wood glue, whilst clamping the 3-ply construction at 50mm interval to ensure good adhesion, this may satisfy your requirements of: cost-effectiveness, ease-of-constriction, commonly available materials, fitness-for-purpose, and strength. By constructing the timbers in this manner you could then remove the need for: epoxy, fiber-glass, metal fabrication, screws, and the associated costs.<br />In a similar vein, it always struck me as magnificent that the ancient Egyptians were able to transport a granite obelisks, weighing hundreds of tonnes, hundreds of km’s, down the Nile on a barge constructed from nothing more than the stalks of the ubiquitous swamp grass of that region. Given the materials and technology available 1000BC, these barges were likely constructed by binding together dried stalks, in an innumerable quantity to achieve sufficient bouyancy; and with a rigidity and structural integrity necessary to navigate a river course over the large distances involved. The strength to be found in a laminated construction of simple and lowly materials, as demonstrated by those papyrus barges of 3000 years ago, can be truly awesome.<br />Mark Carrollhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03759901625446871663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-13815492141140076602019-02-09T08:13:12.003-06:002019-02-09T08:13:12.003-06:00If I become a customer and am doing the constructi...If I become a customer and am doing the construction, I would specify non-ferrous materials throughout. Common construction wood screws rust through in listvenitsa wood on a fence in Far East of Russia humid simmers in four years. Perforated metal plates can be used for extra strength at joints and I really agree with the recommendation for marine plywood gussets. After all they are consistent with wood 4x4's and don't interfere with idea of fibreglass hull in any way. Are titanium screws available and affordable? I don't mind so much to make a mistake with exterior accessible components, but dread any regrettable mistake in materials or construction of infrastructure. Your design is a great wide hull idea. Lon BallAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-70178310784881441362019-02-09T00:25:50.756-06:002019-02-09T00:25:50.756-06:00This is not a wooden boat, this is a fiberglass bo...This is not a wooden boat, this is a fiberglass boat with a wooden core. Wooden boats are a terrible idea. Many marinas simply don't allow them, mostly because they tend to sink a lot, but also because wooden is routinely equated with obsolete.Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-86731327558635551332019-02-09T00:23:11.667-06:002019-02-09T00:23:11.667-06:00Given that the entire design is a screw-and-glue s...Given that the entire design is a screw-and-glue structure encased in fiberglass your preference for an all-wood structure with fancy carpentry is not really applicable to it.Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-83328236007819516802019-02-09T00:21:52.990-06:002019-02-09T00:21:52.990-06:00Pre-drilling isn't necessary if the ends of th...Pre-drilling isn't necessary if the ends of the timbers are taped with fiberglass and weakens the joint by reducing the compression of the wood. The point of the exercise is to compress the wood between the fasteners and the fiberglass.Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-69155321123672082032019-02-08T20:53:54.042-06:002019-02-08T20:53:54.042-06:00seems like a complicated method. Why not just use ...seems like a complicated method. Why not just use triangular pieces of plywood to make the joins as is usually done in wooden boat building?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-2788726212209483222019-02-08T15:28:17.465-06:002019-02-08T15:28:17.465-06:00I would prefer a scarf joint to a butt joint. I&#...I would prefer a scarf joint to a butt joint. I'm also hesitant to use non-wood components in wood framed structures. Metals and composites are stiffer than wood and this can cause wear at the interfaces. An end wrapped in composite is essentially a ferrule that hides the eventual deterioration of the wood because of trapped moisture. A scarf joint with nonferrous fasteners would be an acceptable compromise.DurangoKidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08305299788130438564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-62897149125210651992019-02-08T13:49:58.020-06:002019-02-08T13:49:58.020-06:00To avoid the wood splitting, simply pre-drill the ...To avoid the wood splitting, simply pre-drill the holes to the minor diameter of the screws. It works a treat, and eliminates the fiberglass wrap. Just my 2 cents. Cheers!<br />ChrisAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06190576470587963856noreply@blogger.com