tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post157555926655598976..comments2024-02-27T11:15:46.473-06:00Comments on Quidnon: QUIDNON Assembly: Stuff and GlueDmitry Orlovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-53054115334198866782016-02-09T15:40:18.292-06:002016-02-09T15:40:18.292-06:00OK, here's a question you raised that I guess ...OK, here's a question you raised that I guess I should answer. We're going to use bronze countersunk screws to anchor the copper sheets using plastic anchors epoxied into the plywood bottom. There will be a layer of felt saturated with tar between the fiberglass-clad plywood bottom and the copper sheathing. Probably #8 Phillips sheet metal screws. Bronze nails last around 100 years in salt water (unless there is electrolysis, and there won't be because the copper will get eaten first). Same with screws. So, if 30 years down the road it comes time to re-copper the bottom, there is a good chance that many of the bronze screws can be reused.Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-60047977507613365762016-02-09T15:26:38.350-06:002016-02-09T15:26:38.350-06:00I've been known to do such things.I've been known to do such things.MoonShadowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07026735575577934205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-39662116880416096322016-02-09T07:55:22.356-06:002016-02-09T07:55:22.356-06:00I think that you are overthinking this. Copper and...I think that you are overthinking this. Copper and fasteners should be sized to last 30 years.Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-63539684876578289092016-02-09T00:44:31.645-06:002016-02-09T00:44:31.645-06:00Thinking about this led me to another consideratio...Thinking about this led me to another consideration. It occurred to me that we might not want to size the thickness of the bottom copper plating for the full 30 year expected lifespan of a Quidnon, because there is the risk that the fasteners would fail first. However, if a near term, near total collapse of the world economy or society at large truly is in our future, it's also a good bet that getting a replacement set of copper plates would prove rather difficult in 15 years time. So I propose that the bottom plating be sized with the expectation of replacement in 15 years time; but with a place for a second set of plates to be available inside the Quidnon itself. For example, if the mounting holes are machined when the Quidnon is built, a set of long bolts could be used to secure some or all of the plates together on the sole of the boat, and used as a foundation for some other mounted furniture, such as one or both of the bedroom mattresses, or a raised center walkway. In this way, those who have the means to take advantage of the current (perhaps future) low price of copper can secure a backup set of plates while also contributing to a low COG ballast, while those of us who can barely afford to build one can skip the second set and make up the ballast difference in some other fashion. This plan would set up several ways for this kind of advance planning (which is basically speculation that the cost and/or availability of copper plates in 15 years is worse than today); if Dmitry and others are correct that a cascading environmental and/or economic catastrophe occurs during those 15 years, then there will be spares available to some of us; if society does not collapse, but copper prices have risen to recent highs, then the price of scrap copper off the bottom of the boat can easily pay for the cost of labor to install the second set & rebuild the furniture; if copper prices stay the same or go down, then the decision to buy the extra set of plates would likely be no worse than investing in other commodities, such as gold, which never actually drop to a value of zero, like a company can when filing for bankruptcy. So there is a lot of upside potential, and little downside risk, even for someone who doesn't believe that AGW is a near term collapse risk. Additionally, if after Quidnons have been built, it becomes apparent that collapse will actually happen, the existence of pre-machined plates become particularly valuable to a rapid final build-up of Quidnons, since AC grade plywood is *vastly* more readily available than machined copper plates. A similar argument can be made for the fasteners used on a Quidnon, whether for the plates or otherwise. MoonShadowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07026735575577934205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-84246985923697894792016-02-08T16:55:40.323-06:002016-02-08T16:55:40.323-06:00Even better! So if we can determine how much of t...Even better! So if we can determine how much of the thick plate we need for a 'contact patch', we would easily go to a full 1/8" there, and use 1/16" for everything else. Would that be a pair of skid pads down each side, or just a square under the center of gravity? How would we know our ideal contact patch area? MoonShadowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07026735575577934205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-30510018790194713512016-02-08T13:37:23.061-06:002016-02-08T13:37:23.061-06:00This sounds about right, although according to Dav...This sounds about right, although according to Dave the area that would benefit from thicker stuff is even smaller, perhaps as small as a 16'x16' "contact patch" that the boat sits on when settled.Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-84988794732085109032016-02-08T13:13:17.200-06:002016-02-08T13:13:17.200-06:00Well, It looks like it would be in our interests t...Well, It looks like it would be in our interests to shop around for copper plate while copper prices are depressed. That, at least, is something we can acquire while we are waiting for the Quidnon kit to be worked out. So then we just need to work out how much total area we need to cover with 3/32" and 1/16" plate. I would guess that the bottom would be approximately 32'x16'of thick plate, and 2' up three sides and 4' up the front of the thin plate; so 512 square feet of thick plate and 232 square feet of thin plate, or there about. I think the spot price of copper is going to fall further over the course of 2016, so I might plan to invest some funds into plate copper around September. If I'm significantly off about my estimates for square footage above, please let me know.MoonShadowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07026735575577934205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-22288269334472267122016-02-06T15:41:21.111-06:002016-02-06T15:41:21.111-06:00Apparently these internet-based vendors charge out...Apparently these internet-based vendors charge outrageous prices. Here is the response I got from Dave Zeiger:<br /><br />We paid about $5.25/lb for WAYWARD's copper, totaling about $8.5K.... roughly half the total expenses (a bit more than half of boat materials). But that was (again, dammit... SLACKTIDE, too) buying at peak prices, and just before the bottom fell out on oil and commodities. We only paid a little over $2/lb for LUNA's copper. I'm sure there's some industrial lag, but I expect prices will drop unless there's a global surge in demand (and what are the odds?).<br /><br />Of course, waiting for that might put us in the time-frame of supply side bankruptcy or market cornering buy-ups by deep pockets with nothing better to do.<br /><br />Our supplier has been Alaska Copper and Brass in Seattle. They're easy to work with. I haven't found any comparable supplier, but haven't looked too hard.<br /><br />We've used lighter copper 1/16 on the sides, which has stood up to some doozy side swipes. My guess is it would be adequate for soft grounding, so long as grinding weren't too frequent. I'd personally consider it a workable minimum, and a fair compromise between economy and protection.<br /><br />Copper helps spread point load over plywood's surface. Once the ply deforms, plate happily dimples. But it's main mechanical advantage, to my mind, is abrasion resistance. It shines over sheathings when even a small rock apppears... they'll craze and score through while copper shrugs (or at least deforms without perforation). With tar and felt or equivalent, under, we've never even bothered with repairing minor scars.<br /><br />Still, I sometimes think about a sacrificial layer of ply between copper and hull to absorb the hard knocks. Bedded, not glued.<br /><br />In general, your shallow keel and possibly shallow rails at the turn of the bilge (along the grounded/canted bearing lines) will take a lot of wear off the copper.<br /><br />One option is to go with thicker copper (plate or 'bar') only where you anticipate contact. In LUNA, we had 1/4in plates armoring her sharpie 'belly' (decided these were way overkill... 1/8 is my bottom contact preference). They only took up 9ft out of a 32ft bottom.<br /><br />Longevity is harder... Bolger gave 'penny weight' thickness 7 years underway and 14 if stationary. Water temps and marine growth play a big role, I hear. LUNA's side plating (1/16th inch) looked good at 15 years (some very shallow pitting, but looks to be half or more).Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-2298447475398840302016-02-06T01:41:06.756-06:002016-02-06T01:41:06.756-06:00According to this, http://www.cut2sizemetals.com/c...According to this, http://www.cut2sizemetals.com/copper/sheet/ksh/ a single 24 square foot panel of 3/32 roofing copper costs $1,177, and weights about 4 pounds per square foot. If Quidnon's bottom is 36x16, just the bottom section would be 576 square feet, costing about $28,000 and weighing about 2300 lbs just to copper the bottom. I'm sure there is a premium in there, but I really hope that much copper is overkill.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09525967167827597152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-40449661039736328352016-02-06T00:44:44.102-06:002016-02-06T00:44:44.102-06:00Dave used 3/32 inch copper, which is .094" th...Dave used 3/32 inch copper, which is .094" thick (11-Gauge), twice as thick as 27-gauge, so I assume it would be almost twice as much, or $10-11k. If you have better numbers than that, please post them here. I haven't costed this out yet. Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-52265674080372798942016-02-05T20:30:05.147-06:002016-02-05T20:30:05.147-06:00Dmitry, I just ran some numbers, and using the thi...Dmitry, I just ran some numbers, and using the thinnest roofing copper I can find (27 gauge) the cost of enough square footage to cover the bottom & two feet up each side rings in at just over $6K and 500 lbs. Is that close to what you came up with, and is that gauge thick enough for your 30 year projection?MoonShadowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07026735575577934205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-91614598845771223322016-02-05T11:00:29.299-06:002016-02-05T11:00:29.299-06:00I second the notion of using penetrating epoxy. I...I second the notion of using penetrating epoxy. I use it on all cut ends of wooden boat building parts.chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06313830537468166659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-81501971432412843742016-02-05T10:18:06.064-06:002016-02-05T10:18:06.064-06:00Yes, there would be a boarding ladder.Yes, there would be a boarding ladder.Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-83330455579898646142016-02-04T23:13:52.454-06:002016-02-04T23:13:52.454-06:00Okay, I feel like I might be misunderstanding some...Okay, I feel like I might be misunderstanding something; but if Quidnon isn't tied to a dock, but just sitting on it's bottom on a sandy beach somewhere during low tide, how do you get onto it? Does it have a ladder not shown on the pictures so far?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09525967167827597152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-62599180775565320902016-02-03T12:26:06.090-06:002016-02-03T12:26:06.090-06:00I did a lot of electronics design myself, mostly o...I did a lot of electronics design myself, mostly on Mentor Graphics. I doubt that any of the tools you mention will be of much use in designing a boat. The electrical stuff on boats tends to be simple enough that it's just a matter of looking up the right gauge wire to use in a table. But thank you for your offer of assistance.Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-30313018551618528422016-02-03T11:56:21.915-06:002016-02-03T11:56:21.915-06:00Dmitry,
I am a landlubber electrical engineer. Th...Dmitry,<br /><br />I am a landlubber electrical engineer. The CAD programs I use are: Altium Designer & OrCAD (PCB Design), PSpice (analog simulation), COMSOL (physics simulation).<br /><br />If I can ever be of assistance to you, it would be my pleasure.<br /> -GrahamAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02108647022023827271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-19235900114812044022016-02-03T11:12:04.618-06:002016-02-03T11:12:04.618-06:00The CAD drawings are needed for lots of things: ge...The CAD drawings are needed for lots of things: generating bill of materials, tool paths for NC machining, various calculations having to do with stability and righting moments. Producing the parts using NC machining allows the addition of a huge amount of detail and refinement which would be difficult to reproduce by hand. When building from plans, even detailed ones, there are always bits left behind: how to mount some piece of equipment, where to run a pipe or a wire bundle, etc. This is where all the time goes. The CAD-based approach avoids much of that. And, as I mentioned, NC-machined joinery saves on fasteners and results in tight clearances and good fit everywhere.Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-12427187167042162212016-02-03T10:34:17.256-06:002016-02-03T10:34:17.256-06:00Mostly from his experiences, and those of others, ...Mostly from his experiences, and those of others, with similar shaped hulls. A lot of his information comes from Anke Wagner & Dave Zeiger of triloboats.com, whose boat designs have a similar hull shape, if not similar aesthetics. Dmitri appears to be trying to develop a kit that can be built by semi-amateurs, while Dave's Triloboats are built only from plans, and are not for the faint of heart.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09525967167827597152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-18624639035166453572016-02-03T09:56:35.947-06:002016-02-03T09:56:35.947-06:00Dmitry,
The CAD you mention, is any of this to ve...Dmitry,<br /><br />The CAD you mention, is any of this to verify the sea worthiness of the overall design? If not, how do you know this (very aesthetic) boat will be stable in the water?<br /> -GrahamAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02108647022023827271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-67539457748216773142016-02-03T09:53:08.865-06:002016-02-03T09:53:08.865-06:00Thank you Dmitry & MoonShadowThank you Dmitry & MoonShadowAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02108647022023827271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-87646441936494378102016-02-02T18:48:03.946-06:002016-02-02T18:48:03.946-06:00I was thinking along the lines of small, singlehan...I was thinking along the lines of small, singlehanded manuvears in close quarters, such as how bow thrusters are used today; rather than general propulsion. But I suppose a long pole would likely serve that purpose well also most of the time, and have many other additional uses. I'd still like to be able to use a yuloh to push through the doldrums if it came to that, I can't think of a better alternative to sailing that doesn't require gasoline & a well-maintained engine. I do love the idea of an outboard engine well; because it can be useful in many ways, but I'm not sure that I'd be likely to own an outboard continuously. As you have mentioned before; it is more than possible to get just about anywhere (coastal) on wind power alone, if you are patient, and I might not put enough hours on an engine to justify that maintenance expense. A yuloh (or any oar) is simply a solid object, which has negligible maintenance costs. If I were pushing up rivers and locks of the US interior, I'd want a outboard inside that engine well, but once popping out of the Mississippi into the Gulf of Mexico, I'd be thinking about it's resale value versus the costs of keeping it in good working order for the next time I'm chugging against a river flow. I definitely don't see much value in owning a gasoline outboard in a post-industrial collapse world, since gasoline doesn't typically last more than a year in a state that any small engine can utilize.MoonShadowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07026735575577934205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-46282658519370695532016-02-02T18:30:49.351-06:002016-02-02T18:30:49.351-06:00If you are concerned about doing the assembly your...If you are concerned about doing the assembly yourself, http://www.clcboats.com/ has a wonderful selection of kit boats that you can build your skillset with, including several that could prove very useful for a post-industrial world. While I don't personally share the belief that AGW is necessarily near-term or catastrophic, I certainly agree with Dmitri's view that a boat such as Quidnon fits a real niche that has been missing from the pre-manufactured boat market, whether a catastrophe occurs or not. I plan on ordering a dingy kit from them to complement my own Quidnon.MoonShadowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07026735575577934205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-90348890152539058522016-02-02T12:53:31.897-06:002016-02-02T12:53:31.897-06:00Hi Wade,
I am still working out some details abou...Hi Wade,<br /><br />I am still working out some details about the design, and there is a lot of CAD work that needs to be done. There are a few different options for making the kit and the assembly point can be pretty much anywhere close to water.<br /><br />Thanks for your support, and the T-shirt is a very good idea! My Seasteading shirts are a bit threadbare too.Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-89816399297225545692016-02-02T12:39:07.096-06:002016-02-02T12:39:07.096-06:00Dmitry,
Glad to see a new post about your progres...Dmitry,<br /><br />Glad to see a new post about your progress with Quidnon!<br /><br />I was wondering what your time frame is and how I could become involved with the initial build? Do you have a spot to build it in mind?<br /><br />I plan to send some cash and buy your books. My old Seasteading tee shirt is worn out , will you offer a reprint? Or better yet a new one with a Quidnon design.<br /><br />Best,<br /><br />Wade Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11697509499122477796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7334230772332433270.post-11056223730515395362016-01-31T09:46:35.602-06:002016-01-31T09:46:35.602-06:00Hi Graham,
There is a general feeling about landl...Hi Graham,<br /><br />There is a general feeling about landlubber carpenters that they should not be allowed near wooden boats. Everything they know is almost exactly wrong. That said, your friend John has some valid points and some not-so-valid ones.<br /><br />You definitely should get experience with living aboard, sailing and boat maintenance before you embark on a boatbuilding project. Any sane person you ask will tell you as much.<br /><br />Also, to do a large DIY project you have to be a DIY sort of person. If you are someone who hires tradesmen (plumbers, electricians, painters, carpenters, etc.) to do stuff on land, then this lifestyle is not for you (unless you are made of money).<br /><br />But John's estimate of x3 expenditure over the cost of the kit seems absolutely outlandish. The tools budget is under $1k. All the electronics (GPS, radar, VHF, autopilot) is under $10k. I don't have a complete budget worked out, and I probably won't even bother working out the details of cabin accoutrements (because so much depends on how much money one wants to spend), but the boat can definitely be made livable for less than the cost of the kit.<br /><br />I am glad you share my sense of urgency about getting this project of the ground soon. As far as the pecuniary advantages of this project, I impugn John's allegation that I am in it for the money. I am in it for the boats. I am donating my time to this project, but I want others to pay for the materials—including ones for the boat I intend to build for myself and my family. I think it's a fair bargain.Dmitry Orlovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381674543530177679noreply@blogger.com